Audacious Impact: Jason Perelson On Leading An Audacious, Visionary, Impact-Focused Program
An Interview With Russ McLeod
As seen in Authority Magazine and on Medium.
Be as cautious as you are audacious. Quite literally antonyms of the other, but having that layer within you that understands the pragmatism that’s needed to make an audacious idea come to life means the difference between being the person who talks a big game and the person who is the big game.
In an era where social and environmental challenges are increasingly pressing, certain organizations stand out for their bold and innovative approaches to creating meaningful impact. These trailblazing organizations are not just meeting the status quo but are setting new standards for what can be achieved through dedicated, impact-focused programs. What does it take to pioneer such transformative initiatives, and what can others learn from their successes? I had the pleasure of interviewing Jason Perelson.
One of the co-founders of creativeXpeople and co-designer of the new ThinkPlaceX business in Australia, both innovative models to shape human experience; Jason is a leading thinker in human behavior, creativity as innovative strategy, and positive change. He is the Chair of the advisory board to the Australian Capital Territory’s Chief Minister, an external advisory board member of the Centre for a Better Canberra think tank at the University of Canberra, and a sought-after advisor to senior leaders across government and the private sector for impactful change and human experiences with creativity.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Our readers would love to get to know you a bit better. Can you share a bit about your background and what has led you to your current role?
I’ve been a little all over the place over the last 25 years in my career — but always connected to creativity and human behavior. Starting in broadcasting, I was a writer, producer, sales guy, marketing guy, and I wrote ad copy. I eventually took a role in “new media,” which was what the noughties thought about digital. I started in social media strategy in its early days, making my way into ad agency land, and thriving in creative ideas. From there, I just kept doing and trying new things. I experimented, took risks, chased after any random ideas I had. Once, I decided to write a Pantomime (a traditional British musical comedy stage production) which ended up being picked up and produced for the stage, and I was asked to do another. I eventually immigrated with my wife to Australia, and we started our lives again, arriving with what we packed and our dogs, having sold everything else. We were fortunate to find jobs within the first 2 months, and kept at it. And all the while, I’ve made sure to keep kindness and being a good person at the absolute center of who I am, championing others, and ultimately believing in my core that creativity can change the world.
And I guess I’ve done alright. I’ve been incredibly honored to have received a bunch of awards, met and had the pleasure to lead amazing humans, done impactful work, and have had the added pleasure of having 2 boys with my wonderful wife, and becoming a Partner in a large-scale firm after building a new type of business and making it a success. None of this is possible on my own.
What inspired you to start or join your organization, and what is its core mission?
A deep need for things to be better and different. I knew creative agencies and consultancies were banding together — but none of them did it to work together. They kept quite apart. I felt there must be a better way to do both. Being creative and being a consultant don’t have to be worlds apart. At the end of the day, consulting is (or should be) about talking to clients and understanding their problems, offering expert, frank, and fearless advice, and working with them to improve or fix the problems.
The business of creativeXpeople was crafted as the best of both worlds, taking the good from each, and removing the bad. At its core — it’s about improving the experience of work and life. Then, as we merged this team with ThinkPlace Australia, we created an even more evolved business as an impact accelerator. Where people, a systems approach, and the context in which they operate intersect to find the vital key to creating lasting positive impact.
Everything is about people. And the way to ignite change, and a positive good is led by what creativity sparks. Whether that’s in the mindset of the way of thinking about a problem, or it’s in the way you leverage the techniques of advertising through emotional design, or you tie brand and its intrinsic link to personal identity; it’s all about a core human experience of life.
Could you tell us about your journey in the industry and any significant experiences that have shaped your approach to impact-focused programs?
My journey has been quite purposefully varied. Because I’ve always wanted to try new things. I live by the philosophy of “yes, and,” and it’s something we’ve built into the way we operate as a team. “Yes, and” is the improvisation rule of always assenting and building on. A no is a dead stop. We can do very little with “no.”
Coming up in the industry, I said yes to things as much as I could, or took risks. Tried different things, or even hard things. But I got a lot of experience.
And “Yes And,” is how we work as a team for a positive culture. Through feedback, or conversations, or working with clients. “Yes, and” means you put yourself in an assenting position. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything. But you have to start by understanding what is the perspective and position of the other person, where are they coming from, how might you agree? Or with what part? Then add value. Bring something to it. Build onto it.
That is where impact is driven. I grew up in Apartheid South Africa in the early 80s. I was surrounded by a lot of no’s. “No Blacks here,” “Whites Only Beach.”
I was very fortunate to grow up in a very liberal family, and I went to a multiracial school. But there was still a very clear distinction in the country. But in 1990, I remember distinctly sitting in the lounge of a kid in my class’s house, who happened to live right next to the school — where our teachers had taken us. We sat and watched this small box TV as Nelson Mandela was released from prison. In his first speech, on that day, he didn’t speak about the injustices he’d faced, or how wrong or bad everyone was. He didn’t vow revenge. He spoke about unity. About coming together as a nation.
And in 1994, Nelson Mandela was elected the first democratically elected president where all people of South Africa could vote.
He was a man of “Yes, and.” And he was a man that showed that the impact you have on the world is through your actions, and your willingness to act.
Can you describe your company’s mission? Does your organization solve societal problems? If so, tell us how. What customer problems are you solving?
To create a lasting positive impact is at the core. As it is for me too. Over many years, we’ve worked to shape societal problems, large or small. These might be sweeping changes, or small impacts that affect a small group of people. Ultimately, it’s about doing things to improve the lives of others. We work a lot with government, both national and local, shaping experiences or policies, or improving the ability of public servants to do their work.
I’ve been honored to have been called upon for some truly meaningful work. We’ve worked in the height of COVID to shape positive security behaviors in government departments providing support and much-needed assistance for millions of people. We’ve worked with emergency services frontline workers, to create behavioral interventions to reduce occupational violence and aggression. We were called to support the Australian Army to show a message of support to the Ukrainian people, and have created tools that help people all over the world in some incredibly dire situations while working with the Department of Defence.
Creativity can do so much and help connect so many people to motivate action. It is one of the greatest joys of my life to see the impact individuals can have when they choose to have it.
Do you have a big hairy audacious goal for your organization and its impact on the planet?
I’ve always got big hairy audacious goals. Is changing the world for the better too much? I do absolutely in my core believe we can make a positive impact. Every human being — whether you work at one company or many, or not at all. Everything we do that is led by the intent to do good — does good. That’s why I like “kindness,” and talk about it a lot. Kindness is a choice. It is an active thing. It has intent behind it. You choose to be kind in the world. We need that.
And I believe that rather than trying to aim at the biggest lens of these challenges, it is by creating small, meaningful actions that can create a compounding effect to do good at a global level. If everything we do, at every scale, is fed by the intent to be kind, positive, creative, and to create impact — we will have a measurable effect on the planet.
Can you describe one of the most audacious impact-focused programs your organization has pioneered? What was the inspiration behind it?
I probably wish I’d created more audacious programs if I’m honest. I’ll give a small-scale example I’m proud of, and then talk to what I think is the most audacious.
About 11 years ago now, I was working with Eveready Batteries, and they wanted to do something for corporate social responsibility. And at the time, there was this big surge (I think it was the start of it) of mining for likes on social media around social issues. Particularly this trend of people being able to feel better about themselves by liking a post on an issue — but not actually doing anything about it. The same for companies.
So, I created a program for Eveready called “Make your Likes Count,” and they picked 2 not-for-profit organizations and pledged to donate 1 Rand (this was in South Africa) for every like made on the post. Challenging others to take action. For the skeptics, we even filmed the General Manager taking the cheque to each charity afterward to demonstrate a clear, positive result. It was small-scale — but it had an impact that was truly meaningful for those that benefitted.
But I think the most audacious was building creativeXpeople itself. A very small team of people, seeing a change needed in the world and championing it against all odds and over years, including times of deep uncertainty. Never letting go of the vision and constantly pushing forward to do good in the world by blending the best of creative thinkers, and the best of people and organizational development consultants. That was audacious, and we always had the impact of a better world for others at the heart.
And we did it because we felt we should. I was driven by the inspiration that there had to be a better way than the status quo, and so were the other leaders who joined me. I was driven by motivating positive human behavior, and so were they. We came at it from different angles — but met in the middle. And that was the magic.
What were the biggest challenges you faced while developing and implementing this program, and how did you overcome them?
I’d have to say the biggest challenge was twofold: stick-to-itiveness; in other words, sticking with the idea and the belief that it will be successful and staying the course even when it got tough. And working with other leaders and thinkers who don’t see it, or aren’t on the same page. That can always be a challenge. And it’s not necessarily because someone isn’t as smart, or someone “just doesn’t get it”; there are a myriad of reasons. Often it’s context, it’s a specific perspective on the market, or the context or the conditions, or it’s a framing of the story, or even perhaps it could be that they’re actually right. Working on something audacious will generally have more people who don’t believe in it than do in the beginning. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be audacious in the first place.
That can be disheartening, it can lead you astray, it can stop you in your tracks. For me, I had to wrestle with all of those feelings, the self-doubt and the concern. I overcame that by taking it as a challenge, one that I was willing to face, because I believed very strongly in what we could do. I wouldn’t do that by just pushing on — I knew that I’d need to have buy-in, especially from detractors, so I’d need evidence and I’d need to show results, not just promises.
Overcoming that was about meeting people where they were, finding ways of demonstrating success and potential success and then ways to make small impacts to demonstrate good results.
That also helped me with my own self-doubt by shaping my strategy and narrative in iterative steps around results and pragmatic strategies.
Sometimes those obstacles are guiding bollards to nudge you along different ways that are supportive, and seeing that as such can be a huge benefit to making audacious impact that’s sustainable.
Tell us how your program has been received by customers. What struggles have you had generating customer interest? Please share what successes you’ve had with customers.
We’ve spent the last 6 or so years building this. In the beginning, it was tricky. It was actually tricky just to explain ourselves and nail that narrative. That actually probably took a few years to get right if I’m honest. We spent quite a bit of time fumbling around trying to be a bit of everything when a client would come along so that we’d get the revenue ticking along. And definitely spent some time out on the outskirts of our service offer just to get by.
That’s the trick really — whether it’s a business model or proposition like this story, or an innovation, initiative, or product — you’ve got to realize that it’s probably not going to be perfect out the gate, nor are you going to necessarily nail the customer interest either. For us, we leveraged small, iterative bits and pieces to start to build credibility, and our own learnings and service offers. Everything, even proposals we sent out and lost, were both business development and practice.
It took 2 to 3 years to hit our straps, and we had to take a step back and realize we had even done that. You get a little stuck in the weeds sometimes. But when you look back, you realize “oh, wait, this is working.” Suddenly clients were getting it, there was interest, folks were asking for advice, and reaching out. And our team grew, and was thriving and fulfilled. That’s the true measure of success.
At the end of the day, nearly 7 years later, that small little plucky band of misfits turned into a 50-strong team of brilliant humans, and a multimillion-dollar business that’s made an impact in some truly incredible places.
How do you measure the customer success, business success and impact of your programs? Can you share any specific metrics or outcomes?
Probably one of the biggest failings we’ve had is measurement. It’s easy to measure things like revenue, wins, and profit margin. Measuring outcomes and impacts are less tangible in human experience, behavior, or things like organizational culture. It doesn’t mean they can’t be measured — we’ve just not been as good at measuring these things for ourselves as we are for our clients.
We did get better, and key elements for us were qualitative measures to make sure that we could see or assess the end-of-the-journey outcomes, not just vanity metrics. For instance, we worked in spaces like employee value propositions, recruitment, and retention in national security spaces. Rather than measuring things like application volume, we want to see the lifespan of careers, long-term engagement, or a more easily measured short-term result like actual completed and hired applicants.
Then for ourselves, we’d regularly do engagement surveys of our teams, and our clients, have good, sometimes difficult conversations, and very openly take on all types of feedback — and do something about it.
So, the summary really for key metrics:
Multifaceted team engagement surveys asking a variety of questions.
Set KPIs and OKRs (I particularly like OKRs) that are geared around results based on set objectives and outcomes.
Don’t rely solely on quantitative measures — lean into the qualitative. Ask questions, talk to people, hear the good, bad, and the ugly.
For a business — measure margin. Revenue is vanity, profit is sanity. How well are you managing the commercial outcomes of the business in line with the cultural and experiential parts? And find the sweet spot.
How do you ensure that your programs are sustainable and scalable over the long term?
Don’t run before you can walk, don’t walk before you can crawl. Take it easy, and take meaningful steps along the way. Be very clear about the strategy and where you’re going. Then, if you need to take a detour, that’s ok, because you know how to keep moving in the right direction.
The balance is important because when it gets tough, you’ve got to stay the course. The biggest mistake folks can make is getting overly ambitious when things go well, and over-investing too quickly (whether financially or in effort, time, or commitments) but equally, when things get tough, completely contracting into a fetal position.
Don’t overspend yourself, but don’t underspend yourself either. You’ve got to find a measured, smart way to make a pathway through, and keep moving. A simple example in business is when the market’s tough, and companies need to reduce costs, they cut marketing. Why on earth would you do that? If you’re not getting enough business through the door, why cut the one cost center that is actively geared to getting more business through the door?
You’ve got to have a clear perspective of your leverage points in your idea, and when you should use them, and how. If you have that, and a clear mind — with some good voices around you in support, you can maintain, sustain, and scale efficiently.
What are your “5 Things You Need To Bring An Audacious Idea to Fruition”?
Be as cautious as you are audacious. Quite literally antonyms of the other, but having that layer within you that understands the pragmatism that’s needed to make an audacious idea come to life means the difference between being the person who talks a big game and the person who is the big game.
Patience. I suspect pretty much everyone would say this. But the audacious doesn’t just happen (even when sometimes it does, it doesn’t stick until later). Hold fast, keep going. If it’s right, it will be right. But it won’t happen if you’re looking for overnight success or to be diving in gold coins like Scrooge McDuck.
Be like water. The famous quote from Bruce Lee about being like water is so important. Your ability to shift and change with the flow, to be malleable and moveable is important. Your ideas might change, you might change. And you might need to adapt to your environment. Like water in a cup, you become the cup. And equally, you may need to break rocks. Be like water.
Kindness. This might seem an odd inclusion for audacious ideas. We so often see audacious ideas, and those that generate them being these highly entrepreneurial, inventive, creative, and often intense types. Don’t forget kindness. Kindness is a choice. It is an active decision we make to be good to the world and the people around us. What good is the best idea in the world without kindness? And it’s kindness that will see you the most successful. It will see your ideas flourish, the people around you flourish, and your support grow. It will see you, and everyone you encounter, rise alongside you.
My biggest and most important piece of advice is remember “nothing exists. Everything is made up.” This is a flag I wave constantly and one of the most important realizations I came to that shapes everything. We, as a species, create fiction. Fiction becomes a more solid reality the more people believe it. From businesses to brands to even fundamental societal functions like currency. It is all made up. So the limits imposed on you, the barriers, the obstacles, or deadlines are made up. They are only made solid by the volume of people that believe it to be true and who enforce it. Find the ones that are less solid, and break through them. Often these are the limits imposed on you by yourself. They’re made up.
What piece of advice would you give to other organizations looking to pioneer their own impact-focused programs?
Embrace the stupid/smart. In our team a few years ago, we had a “wall of stupid ideas.” This was a place to put up anything that you thought, or someone thought. A simple Post-It of a “stupid idea.” You know those ideas you get randomly and for a second you think it’s amazing — and then suddenly you go “nah, that’s a stupid idea.” We put those up.
Every time we’d come back to that wall — every stupid idea was gold. It might spark something else, it might lead to new inspiration, or someone else might have an idea that connects to yours and suddenly it’s genius. Stupid is smart. Embrace silly, outrageous, unusual, creative, and ultimately stupid. Because stupid can be smart.
But my best advice to organizations looking to pioneer an impact-focused program is to start now. There’s not much more to it than that really. I could wax on lyrically about all sorts of additional context. At the end of the day — just start. Now.
Can you share a story of someone who has inspired you in your journey?
In the mid-2000s, I was on a golf course in South Africa alongside a few thousand other people.
It was the 46664 Concert, Nelson Mandela’s charitable event to raise awareness, and funds to fight AIDS.
Will Smith hosted, Annie Lennox, Katie Melua, India Arie were there — and Queen was there with Paul Rodgers of Free on lead vocals.
Thousands of people at a huge concert, having the time of their lives.
Then at around 11 pm, Nelson Mandela walked on stage. And every single sound evaporated. Not a single person spoke. There was this incredible hush. It was one of the most moving experiences of my life that I still talk about today. Every person there had so much respect for him and his words. His empathy, compassion, and leadership. He is an inspiration to the world and every bit the legend you hear about. I was honored to have seen him in person, and hear his words in person.
Everyone I’ve met throughout my life has inspired me in some way. I’ve learned from them, experienced new things, tried new things, and been fortunate to have worked with, and for, great people.
How can our readers further follow your work or your company online?
My website https://thatginger.au or on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonperelson/
This was great. Thanks for taking time for us to learn more about you and your business. We wish you continued success!
Thank you! And thanks for having me.
About the Interviewer: Russell McLeod is an experienced business leader, social entrepreneur, and mentor. A champion of profit with purpose, the circular economy and of collaboration for positive progress.
Russell is the founder of Mightyhum a Toronto-based impact enterprise dedicated to supporting growing organizations. And, while it’s not a requirement, the Mightyhum team has a passion for collaborating with purpose-driven businesses. Mightyhum specializes in providing consulting services and turning hairy audacious concepts into achievable ventures & projects. The Mightyhum team work with C-suite executives and leaders, developing new product offerings, effective go-to-market strategies, building for profitability, and streamlining operations. Before Mightyhum, Russell was involved in the world of social enterprise as the Executive Director of ME to WE, one of Canada’s best known and most awarded social enterprises. While at ME to WE, the team demonstrated that being profitable and impactful was indeed possible. During his tenure, ME to WE delivered $20M in cash and in-kind to WE Charity, helping transform the lives of over 1 million people through access to clean water; the lives of 200,000 children with access to education; and 30,000 women-led businesses launched globally.
Russell’ personal mission is to inspire others that there is ‘a better way to do business,’ ‘that through business we can solve some of the world’s problems at the same time.’ You can follow Russell’s work at https://www.linkedin.com/in/russell-mcleod1/ or www.mightyhum.com.